landry98
join:2001-08-31
Red Stick
 ·Cox HSI
| transfer switch location/space limitation
I'm having a 36K generator with an automatic (whole house/200A/service entrance) transfer switch installed outdoors at my shore home.
electrician is trying to figure out where to place transfer switch. the existing service has underground utility to the meter which is mounted to brick siding in a 41 inch space between two windows. see attached pictures. (COX cable box is being removed). there is little room to vertically mount transfer switch which is 30 inches long by 16 1/2 wide. If transfer is installed above existing meter, the 200A service breaker inside would be 7' from ground level. electrician thinks that's too high and would create a cable volume problem routing six service wires through meter housing. his solution is to install new meter/riser moving it left next to window, relocating the four 220 breakers inside to a separate new panel to be imounted to the right and install transfer directly above that. new panel is 26 inches high which would put transfer switch service disconnect breaker at just about same height if it was installed above existing meter. any ideas on how to lay this out and make it look neat? if we used a new sub panel for 220 breakers would a service disconnect be required in that panel or would the service disconnect in the transfer switch suffice? looking for ideas, any help appreciated- Landry |
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landry98
join:2001-08-31
Red Stick
·Cox HSI
| pictures |
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nunya
SEE ROCK CITY 475 MILES
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O Fallon, MO
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| reply to landry98
36K? Seriously? Is this a McMansion? What are you guys doing in there? What's going to fuel this beast? If it's NG, have you talked to OGE? They may not be able to meet the gas demand of a generator that large.
First off, get another bid and see if you really need a unit that big. Unless you are just looking for some very expensive bragging rights. It sounds like serious, serious overkill for the average household.
Those Milbank Meter / Mains are a PITA for adding an ATS. The easiest and simplest solution is to have the cable and telephone relocated and mount the ATS next to the meter, as-is. I would not relocate that existing service. Most muni's will not allow any breaker to be installed over 6' high, so on top is probably out of the question.
It doesn't really look like wiring space should be an issue anyway. That panel has plenty of wire room in it. If your ATS is service rated, you can lose the 200A main breaker and convert it to lug, but that only gets you a little more room.
PS: Get some no-ox on those aluminum feeders - STAT! Those lugs are just waiting to "burn baby burn".
You also might want to black out the info on your permit in the window.
--
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davidg
Good Bye My Friend
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join:2002-06-15
none
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| reply to landry98
why can't it go where the cable and telco boxes are now? looks like it should fit. or have them move the 240v circuits inside and locate the ATS and a new main panel in the garage/utility room.
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TheMG
join:2007-09-04
Edmonton, AB
·TELUS
| reply to landry98
36KVA?!?!?
Holy crap, that's a lot of backup power for a house. Do you have a server farm running in your basement or something?
Or maybe you've got all-electric heat? If so maybe you should consider alternative heating sources, such as NG or propane. Would allow you to have a smaller generator (cheaper) and depending on what the cost of electricity is in your area compared to NG/prop that may also be cheaper. |
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landry98
join:2001-08-31
Red Stick
·Cox HSI
| reply to landry98
3800 sq ft living area (meth lab not included). generator is bought and paid for, sitting in garage. Natural gas. utility says it will work. they use three regulators past 2lb meter, one for house (existing) plus one new @ meter for generator and third @ generator. requires 503 cu ft per hr @ 11 inches of wc. 190 ft of 1 inch poli line.
thanks for the other tips. electrician needs to add two 20A 110 breakers for generator control and battery charger, so existing panel space is an issue. will contact ATT (oh the pain) to move NID. already tried to have COX move cable which turned into circus. end result will be switching to satellite & DSL. electrician said moving cable/phone would be PiTA- he was right. |
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landry98
join:2001-08-31
Red Stick
·Cox HSI
| reply to landry98
seriously- I realize size is overboard but wanted to use low RPM generator which goes from 25K model to 36 with a $1G price difference. 25 would be close. decided to go bigger seeing the price difference. when I add the lights for the funny looking plants will have capacity. |
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jack b
Gone Fishing
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join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod
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| You probably wont use anywhere near 500 cfh of gas, since that generator will not likely ever see anything approaching full load, but size everything as if it would.
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Johnbell
@verizon.net
| reply to landry98
Why not just move the cable and phone boxes yourself. Its only a couple of screws and cuting down the conduit the phone line runs up to the box in. Im suprized your electrician will not do it. from the picture it would take only a few minites and then the transfer switch could go right next to the meter box. a specal tool might be required to get in the box, but it can usualy be found at the depot |
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nunya
SEE ROCK CITY 475 MILES
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O Fallon, MO
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| reply to landry98
Moving the the telephone NWI is a 30-60 minute job. The cable is even simpler. And it will cost you a lot less than what the electrician is wanting to do. You've already wasted enough money, probably unnecessarily, as it is.
If all you wanted is low rpm, there a LOT of low RPM and water cooled models available in a much smaller size. My guess is somebody yanked your chain for the upsell on products / services.
Even grow lights don't use that much electricity. About 400W per for MH bays. Your "crop" will be ok with a few days of reduced intensity (half lights).
Granted you have more SF, but I can run my entire household on 6 kW during an outage with very minor inconvenience (no electric oven, range still works).
--
Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.
Nancy Pelosi - House Minority Leader 2010
Harry Reid - Senate Minority Leader 2010 |
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bkjohnson
Premium
join:2002-05-22
Birmingham, AL | reply to landry98
If you're uncomfortable with moving the phone/cable by yourself & the electrician doesn't want to, what about looking into having a communications contractor moving them? |
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nunya
SEE ROCK CITY 475 MILES
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
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| reply to landry98
If you're uncomfortable with moving the phone/cable by yourself & the electrician doesn't want to, what about looking into having a communications contractor moving them?
Regulated. Customers, or those in their employ, can't legally move it. You have to call the utility first. They own the service drop and the NWI, regardless of whether it's on or attached to your property. By agreeing to service at some point, the utility was given permission to place. If they are notified and do not move it in a timely manor, then I'd go to town on it.
--
Looks like Reverend Wright got his wish - God Damn America.
Nancy Pelosi - House Minority Leader 2010
Harry Reid - Senate Minority Leader 2010 |
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John Galt
Forward, March
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join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
1 edit | reply to landry98
Have the electrician install another two pole breaker for the load bank you are going to have to run. It is unlikely that you are going to be drawing 75 amps continuous.
Generators need to be properly loaded to maintain voltage regulation. It is better to run them almost loaded to the max rather than lightly loaded.
Good thinking on the low-speed selection, though.
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xbell
@cgocable.net
| reply to nunya
said by nunya  : Regulated. Customers, or those in their employ, can't legally move it. I move them occasionally. I carry the same supplies as the phone and cable company.
When I'm done it's usually a cleaner and safer install than their contractors.
What's legal and what's realistic are two different things. |
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landry98
join:2001-08-31
Red Stick | reply to landry98
move NIDs
I was kidding about the grow lights.
by unanimous vote the two NID's will be moved. thanks to all who responded. Landry |
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neonhomer
Honoray Mythbuster
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join:2004-01-27
Edgewater, FL
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| reply to landry98
Re: transfer switch location/space limitation
For the benefit of the listening audience... would you mind posting your usage calculations to see how you are coming up with a 25k need? (You said a 25 would be close, so a 36 is what you went with.)
I don't even think the new fire station they built in Orlando has THAT big of a genset.... (I think it was 20K diesel, 460/3phase) |
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hayabusa3303
Over 200 mph
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| reply to landry98
said by landry98 :seriously- I realize size is overboard but wanted to use low RPM generator Problem is some generators only run at one speed about 1800 rpm no matter what the load is.
36kva? i agree thats three phase last time i checked. |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to landry98
Now I feel my ego inflated. Typically work with 2000kW, 2500kVA gensets (multiple in parallel). Did a project recently with 12, 3640 kW gensets. All are medium voltage diesel gensets, 12.47kV to 13.2kV.
As far as load goes, JG is right. The generator will have a very hard time regulating voltage at less than 30% load. If it was diesel, it would be subject to 'wet-stacking' as well. Make sure you have the best voltage regulataor you can get; digital if they have one. And make sure its not 3 phase. |
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mocycler
Premium
join:2001-01-22
Naperville, IL
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to landry98
I can't give specific advice regarding your installation, but is this electrician a qualified pro you hired, or just your handy brother in law, neighbor, etc?
If they are a real electrician, they are supposed to know how to set this up without you having to fish around on internet message boards. Not many residential-level electricians have experience with 36K generators and 200 amp panels. You might need to bring in someone qualified for commercial installs.
Also, most municipalities require a permit to install a generator. The guidelines will specify how it is to be wired, what can go where, etc. You can't just stick things wherever they fit. In my town you have to submit diagrams with measurements and show exactly where everything will be, then they send an inspector to verify that you followed the approved plan.
Even if no permit is required in your area, the job should be planned out ahead of time so there are no surprises when the electrician shows up.
I'm not trying to flame you, but I get the impression that you (and perhaps the electrician) underestimate the complexity of your project. I'm looking to install a generator panel in my house and it is turning out to be a lot more detailed than I thought...and my application is rather simple by generator standards. I've been planning this for a few weeks and I'm still not ready to begin work.
Good luck; hope it all turns out well!
mocycler |
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